[2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

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Did you like 2x12?

Yes
25
40%
No
22
35%
Meh
15
24%
 
Total votes: 62
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lilpo
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby lilpo » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:07 pm

Being a Hook fan, I like to believe that after Emma (in 2x12) and David (in 2x13) took advantage of Hook's injury, the latter realized what's it actually like to be an invalid, thus deciding to "Not fight invalids" in 3x05, even though he had been a jerk to Rumpelstiltskin when they first met.
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Jennie
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby Jennie » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:44 pm

Beating, by definition is "to strike violently or forcefully and repeatedly." This is what I meant by semantics...the actual definition of the phrase "he beat a woman unconscious". This is not trivialization of abuse.

I too was in an abusive relationship in high school, so I have nothing but sympathy for domestic abuse. But regardless of my disgust at domestic violence, that has nothing to do with Hook hitting Belle. I have never argued that he was anything but wrong for that. What I was pointing out was that labeling him a person who "beats" women is a misnomer and only misconstrues the situation to bolster hate for the man he was before he let go of his quest for revenge.

Now, about Rumple's mistreatment of Milah, this bothers me more. I have no doubt that Rumple never laid a finger on his wife. But you don't have to use physical abuse to mistreat and misuse someone. Milah was not an innocent of course. She was harsh to Rumple when he returned home in shame. But that does not excuse Rumple's dismissal of her desire to make their lives better. It was shown in the episode that he wouldn't consider starting over in a new land even though it was obvious that his wife was miserable in their village (and she had asked him before). His answer was just for her to ignore the problems and persevere for the sake of Baelfire. He is really just as much to blame for her abandoning them as she is, because he ignored her pleas to move to save their family.

To put this in a personal aspect as was done previously in this thread, before my 2nd child was born, we had moved away from family and friends for work. I was unhappy being so far away, but after my son was born, I slipped into a full-blown depression. I finally told my husband that I wanted to move back to my hometown. He didn't want to and tried to talk me out of it at first, because he liked his job and had made many friends. But when I told him how unhappy I was, he said "Okay, we'll figure this out." It was pretty devastating financially, because I had a very good paying job and it was very expensive to move back, but he cared more about my happiness and our family than the cost or the unknown obstacles. It took us years to fully recover financially, but our marriage and family survived.

That episode (The Crocodile, I believe) was written to make us sympathize with Rumple (and introduce Hook's motive for revenge), which is why I think so much of the fandom still hates Milah and blames her for Rumple's actions (or inaction, as the case may be). I was guilty of that myself when I first watched the episode back in Season 2. Believe it or not, I liked Rumple much better than Hook then and that colored my perception of the Rumple/Milah relationship. I was only when I rewatched it the next week that I thought, "wait a minute, why didn't Rumple try to honor Milah's plea?" If it was about money or danger, why wasn't that made clear in the dialog. Given Rumple's character at the time (cowardice) it's probable that it was his fear of the unknown dangers that prevented him for trying to move. Those fears may have been valid, but we were never shown that in the episode either.
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mdlay
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby mdlay » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:33 am

Jennie wrote: But regardless of my disgust at domestic violence, that has nothing to do with Hook hitting Belle. I have never argued that he was anything but wrong for that. What I was pointing out was that labeling him a person who "beats" women is a misnomer and only misconstrues the situation to bolster hate for the man he was before he let go of his quest for revenge.
We are not saying that domestic violence is the same as Hook hitting Belle. We are simply saying that shirking off knocking her out, because semantically the word beating sounds like he repeatedly struck her is dismissive of the action and its impact. (He struck her hard enough to knock her out. that in itself is pretty damn bad, he is not above hitting a woman) You agree that his action was wrong, but you don't like him being labeled as a woman beater. He was a bad guy. He knocked out a woman, and like misy said If Regina hadn't interrupted who knows what else... As adults we should acknowledge that Hook was once a bad guy (possibly a really bad guy), we aren't bolstering hate for the man. tis simply the facts. (may not like the way it sounds, but we watched the episode we know what we saw), and now he is moving forward from his vendetta and seeking redemption.
Jennie wrote: Now, about Rumple's mistreatment of Milah, this bothers me more. I have no doubt that Rumple never laid a finger on his wife. But you don't have to use physical abuse to mistreat and misuse someone. Milah was not an innocent of course. She was harsh to Rumple when he returned home in shame. But that does not excuse Rumple's dismissal of her desire to make their lives better. It was shown in the episode that he wouldn't consider starting over in a new land even though it was obvious that his wife was miserable in their village (and she had asked him before). His answer was just for her to ignore the problems and persevere for the sake of Baelfire. He is really just as much to blame for her abandoning them as she is, because he ignored her pleas to move to save their family.

She had every right to leave. If anyone is unhappy in their marriage or relationship ( I honestly believe) they have every right to leave with out any judgement or criticism placed upon them. (personally I never blamed Melah for any of her actions, not even leaving Baelfire. I believe in every persons right to choose where their life goes.) And you are right. Emotional abuse is still abuse (even if not physical abuse, emotional is often more damaging) of course she seemed to give as well as she got. They were obviously not a stable relationship. Otherwise they would have tried to work it out. So good thing they each found love else where (even if temporarily)

lilpo wrote:Being a Hook fan, I like to believe that after Emma (in 2x12) and David (in 2x13) took advantage of Hook's injury, the latter realized what's it actually like to be an invalid, thus deciding to "Not fight invalids" in 3x05, even though he had been a jerk to Rumpelstiltskin when they first met.

Yep. And like many of the characters he is working towards his redemption. and that is one of the reasons we love him...
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desa
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby desa » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:20 am

I do not agree about what you said.I think that Rumple was abused in that relationship.Milah's love for him was dead the minute she saw him come back from the battlefield in disgrace.Milah only stayed with him until the better opportunity came a long and that was Hook.Remember Hook said to Bae that they planned to came back for him when he was older.That is selfish too,let Rumple raise our child and when he is old enough We'll come back and take him from you as well.No I think that Milah was a selfish woman who only thought about herself and her happiness.And that has marked Rumple with his fathers abandonment and Milah leaving him and later Cora no wonder he said to Belle that nobody could ever love him.I do not approve that he killed her in the end.When Belle came along he did mistreated her in the beginning and Hook has tried to kill Belle more than once and his apology to her was ridiculous because it did not seem like he meant it.I am a fan of both Rumple and Hook and I do hope that they can work their problems because I would like to see them get along but from what I hear that will not be in season 4.
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby misy » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:27 pm

mdlay- yes, exactly. You said it perfectly. That is the point I was trying to make.
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby Jennie » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:01 pm

I respect your opinions, but I stand by mine and the well know meaning of the words beating a woman unconscious.

Just as some people who dislike Neal call him a statutory rapist because Emma was underage when they conceived Henry and Neal was not (I've seen this statement on tumblr), people often paint Hook as a misogynist who abuses women (also seen on tumblr and other fansites). Using words like beat, which is by definition repeatedly hitting someone, only adds fuel to those flames. Why say he 'beat her unconscious' rather than 'knocked her unconscious'? Because the first one sounds like he repeatedly hit her and brings to mind a battered woman.

I never 'shirked off' him hitting her. In fact, I even said it was wrong. It was horrible, and he would have killed her if Regina hadn't magically swiped his hook. It was also in the past before he gave up his revenge against Rumple. Rumple killed the woman he loved. When someone is on a quest for revenge, they often only care about making the other person suffer, not who else is hurt along the way (check out Revenge on ABC for reference). Is it right and good? No. But it's real human emotion. Hook is doing what we want Rumple and Regina to do. He's trying to turn his life around.

Re: Milah and Rumple

Milah giving as good as she got doesn't negate the fact that Rumple didn't acknowledge her unhappiness. As a man in their society, Rumple had the power to change their destiny in a way that Milah could not. After years and years of unhappiness, she finally had an opportunity and took it. She left the husband who wasn't acknowledging her needs. I believe Bae was the reason it took her so long to leave. She stayed with a man who loved her in his own way, but not enough to make her happy. Her leaving didn't add to Rumple's abandonment issues because he thought she was dead. Until he found out she wasn't and then killed her for not loving him.
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desa
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby desa » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:53 am

Jennie wrote:Re: Milah and Rumple

Milah giving as good as she got doesn't negate the fact that Rumple didn't acknowledge her unhappiness. As a man in their society, Rumple had the power to change their destiny in a way that Milah could not. After years and years of unhappiness, she finally had an opportunity and took it. She left the husband who wasn't acknowledging her needs. I believe Bae was the reason it took her so long to leave. She stayed with a man who loved her in his own way, but not enough to make her happy. Her leaving didn't add to Rumple's abandonment issues because he thought she was dead. Until he found out she wasn't and then killed her for not loving him.


Well it has been a long time since that episode aired so I have forgotten about that.She left him with the gilt thinking that she was dead and that he did not do anything to save her well that makes it all better as long as she is happy.Yes he is a man and he could make a decision to leave the village but he was to afraid to do that.He wanted to stay in a place which was familiar to him.I have no problem that she left him he was better off without her because she was abusing him emotionally and she wanted to be happy.I have a problem with the way she left and that she did not take her child with her.Yes she planned to come back for Bae but only when he is old enough and look where she went she became a PIRATE.Rumple has his many flaws but Milah was an abussive and selfish woman and there is no doubt about that.
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lilpo
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby lilpo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:29 am

desa wrote:I have a problem with the way she left and that she did not take her child with her.Yes she planned to come back for Bae but only when he is old enough and look where she went she became a PIRATE.Rumple has his many flaws but Milah was an abussive and selfish woman and there is no doubt about that.


I agree with that. However, if you think about it, the life of a sailor (let alone a pirate) is very hard, let alone for a seven-year-old boy or how old Bae was. But that doesn't make Milah less selfish. She herself said that she let her misery cloud her judgement.

@Jennie, I don't mean to offend you, but talking about semantics, the way you talked about Rumpelstiltskin mistreating Milah looked like the way misy talked about Hook beating Belle. To someone who hasn't paid much attention to these two facts, those sayings are kind of misleading. But you explain it later, so OK.
Last edited by lilpo on Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby misy » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:56 am

The fact that it only took one punch to 'knock her unconscious' does not make it better.
It makes it worse!
He punched her SO HARD it only took one punch to the head to render her unconscious.
To use that fact to defend him is a bit misguided imo.
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby lilpo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:39 pm

I don't think he would have acted differently if it were a defenseless man instead of a defenseless Belle, we all saw how he treated Rumpelstiltskin when they first met.
No-one in this thread ever said that Hook was right doing what he did, it was merely told that he was blinded by his revenge. He didn't give a damn about her, not because she was a woman, but because he considered her collateral damage. That is horrible, by any means, but it doesn't make him a misogynist. His actions in the third season prove that he is trying to change, but his apology was not heartfelt and Belle didn't ever seem convinced by it. It's the writers' problem if they are overlooking such facts. I hope that they change that in the next season(s).
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby mdlay » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:33 pm

lilpo wrote:I don't think he would have acted differently if it were a defenseless man instead of a defenseless Belle, we all saw how he treated Rumpelstiltskin when they first met.
No-one in this thread ever said that Hook was right doing what he did, it was merely told that he was blinded by his revenge. He didn't give a damn about her, not because she was a woman, but because he considered her collateral damage. That is horrible, by any means, but it doesn't make him a misogynist. His actions in the third season prove that he is trying to change, but his apology was not heartfelt and Belle didn't ever seem convinced by it. It's the writers' problem if they are overlooking such facts. I hope that they change that in the next season(s).

in this I think lilpo is spot on. Absolutely correct.
Also for me Regarding Milah, I dont think they were actually gonna go back for Baelfire. (like when couples make plans and talk about going abroad for holiday, but then never do) I'm sure some nights they stayed up talking about it, and that she shared her regret with him, but I don't think they were ever gonna really do it.
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby misy » Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:40 pm

I never said he was a misogynist. I never even called him a woman beater.
I only brought up what he did to Belle in response to a previous comment by someone else that Emma manhandled him using police brutality.
Considering his treatment if Belle, I found that post laughable.
I was trying to make a point and/or comparison, that's all.
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby lilpo » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:56 pm

I understand that, and I'm sorry for my bad writing, I know you didn't call him anything like that. I'm a fan of Hook but I'm trying to be as objective as I can, and I see a lot of one-sided hate for him. Your statement here doesn't count as that. I was simply trying to avert haters from calling him a misogynist out of that. I just got carried away, I'm sorry :oops: .
Well, many past actions of Hook's (and Rumpelstiltskin's, and Regina's) are being overlooked. Probably because they are currently trying to help, but it's a plot hole nonetheless.
As for Emma's manhandling him, I actually think he deserved that at that time. :twisted:
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby Jennie » Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:35 pm

My problem with Milah (and why I sometimes go off on tangents about it) is that a large part of the fandom hates her for leaving Bae. I was only trying to point out her reasons for leaving her family, not defend her actions. She gets so much hate from the fandom, even though she paid with her life...it seems so unfair in comparison to the forgiveness we are able to grant Rumple and Neal for doing basically the same thing.

She admitted she made a mistake. Just like Rumple admitted he made a mistake letting go of Bae. And just like Neal admitted he made a mistake leaving Emma (which caused him to miss out on raising Henry). They all had their reasons for making those choices, but regardless, it was the people who loved them who suffered the most.

I definitely don't love Milah. If I had to rank the characters from fav to least fav, she'd be closer to the bottom. But I just can't hate her either. She wasn't evil, just human. As far as we know, she never even actually killed anyone... :shrug2:
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Re: [2x12] In the Name of the Brother Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:32 pm

Ouroboros wrote:This was a good episode. So much to like and love.

Pros:
    -Character flashback episode for non-main character. Always a pleasure.
    -Moral ambiguity. Snow & Co. actually considered and debated letting a man die.
    -Focus off the mains. Somewhat.
    -Ruby is a boss. Deputize her, Emma! :D
    -Whale's story. ): It wasn't yet another dead girlfriend/boyfriend!
    -Gerhardt lives!
    -Henry bringing up the other worlds. Foreshadowing! (I hope, I hope, I hope.)
    -Oh Regina... you'll never let yourself win, will you? Unless this is a plan. It was phrased ambiguously, so Regina could go either way at this point.
    -Frankenworld was in B&W (well, tinted blue). Fun.
    -Cora, you are an evil woman. But even evil women love their daughters.
    -Parental Awfulness Blues reigned.
    -Cora using Henry as a tactic to worm her way back into Regina's life. Hit me right in the place my heart should be.
    -Grumpy. Dude, you're dark. Turn it down a notch!
    -Goodbye, Frankendad. No one will miss you.
    -Gerhardt was interesting... I want to see more of his story.
    -The patient, Greg Mendell, saw something! (His name, by the way, translates appropriately into "Watchful Man". Greg meaning 'watchful or alert' and Mendell (also Mendel, Mandel, Mann, and more) being a diminutive of 'man'.)
    -Belle wasn't magically cured. That would have felt cheap after what happened in the previous episode.
    -Rum back to his old terrifying self. (Dude even threatened Henry!)
    -Rumpelstiltskin in FULL COLOR, lol. (Also, what is up with his accent lately? Is Mr. Carlyle adding some kind of faux English flourish to Rum's mocking words? I liked it when he was more nasally.)
    -Star Wars ringtone. Shout out or fodder for a massive theory tread? You decide. :lol:
    -Ruby's line about eating her boyfriend. Sad and funny. That whole conversation with Whale was nice.
    -Hook, you are slimy. :heart: Never change.

Cons:
    -Emma and Charming letting Gold smack up Hook while Hook was obviously injured. Emma, you could take the little guy in a fist fight as long as he wasn't using his cane or magic. You might have more reach.
    -Emma prodding Hook's injuries. Yeah, that's not a crime there, Sheriff Swan. Moral ambiguity is great, but that was just a little OOC.
    -Episode was too short! :)
    -Rum's FTL/Frankenworld accent. Been weird this season. Sounds different.
    -Trollololol, Snow and Frankenstein had a fling that no one will ever not forget to remind Snow about. (But where are all the people reminding David that he was with Kathryn? Oh, double standards, you never get cute.)


the Things with Snow/Frankenstein or Charming with Abigail don't count. They were cursed as Snow keeps reminding everyone. But it was pretty humorous on how Emma commented that or how Charming first reacted.

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