[4x20] Mother Discussion

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Did you like [4x20] Mother?

Yes
17
77%
No
4
18%
Meh
1
5%
 
Total votes: 22
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OnceUponAFan
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby OnceUponAFan » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:03 pm

aeverett wrote:
OnceUponAFan wrote:Having Regina care for an innocent baby who has done nothing wrong will make her a pancy? You are messed up.

Firstly, please argue your point rather than resort to character assassination with me.

Secondly, the baby's innocence is not the issue. It is part of two people who have hurt Regina over and over again. You can't tell me it won't have any of Cora's mannerisms or features, or Zelena's for that matter. Every time that kid displays anything that isn't Robin or some unknown ancestor, Regina gets hurt. She shouldn't have to face that if she's now one of the good guys. Heroes are supposed to get happy endings, not compromises with fate. That child is not a happy ending for Regina. Maybe for somebody else, but not Regina. There is too much pain in Regina's past for that.


Dude, don't get me wrong I absolutely HATE this baby plot line with Zelena, hate the fact they they brought her back at all honestly and made her series regular! But if you follow your reasoning then the same must be said about Henry. Look who his grandfather is? No matter how bad Zelena or Cora was they will never be as bad as rumplestilskin and like it or not that is in Henry's blood. And you can't blame the child for its parents because half of the child's blood would be her blood too and the other half the blood of the man she loves. It seems crazy to suggest she would totally ignore the child simply because it's her sisters child.

Who knows if that's even the direction the show will take, maybe they are planning a redemption ark for Zelena or something who knows. But I too wish that they can find a way to make this baby disappear.
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby aeverett » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:07 pm

OnceUponAFan wrote:Dude, don't get me wrong I absolutely HATE this baby plot line with Zelena, hate the fact they they brought her back at all honestly and made her series regular! But if you follow your reasoning then the same must be said about Henry. Look who his grandfather is? No matter how bad Zelena or Cora was they will never be as bad as rumplestilskin and like it or not that is in Henry's blood. And you can't blame the child for its parents because half of the child's blood would be her blood too and the other half the blood of the man she loves. It seems crazy to suggest she would totally ignore the child simply because it's her sisters child.

Who knows if that's even the direction the show will take, maybe they are planning a redemption ark for Zelena or something who knows. But I too wish that they can find a way to make this baby disappear.

Actually, there's a big difference with Henry. Regina didn't know who Henry's birthparents (and by extension, grandparents) were when she fell in love with him. Grant it, she learned the truth about Henry's birthmother mere seconds later, as we saw in 'Save Henry', but she loved him first. She wasn't looking for Snow or Rumple or anyone else she might have known in her baby boy, so she could love him, and once she loved him, she couldn't stop, as evidenced by her decision to keep him despite the risk in adopting the savior's biological child.

There's also the fact that while Rumple, Snow, Charming, etc. each caused Regina pain or hardship in her life, they weren't her mother, they weren't the foundation of her self that the parents who raise you are. Cora was a betrayal in every sense of the word from the moment Regina drew her first breath. Even Cora's last moment, where there seemed to be an instant of tenderness between mother and daughter, proved a lie in light of Zelena's existence. Regina could never have been enough for Cora. When Zelena's baby shows any semblance to Cora, that is what Regina will feel in her heart, sheer betrayal. If he or she is anything like Zelena, all she'll feel is the pain of watching her own child deal with his father's death. It's suffering on the other side of the equation, not being the child of a cruel parent, but watching your own child endure pain due to the cruelness of another. That's what Zelena's contribution to the baby will bring Regina.

If Zelena had been Henry Sr. daughter from a prior relationship, perhaps he'd had a magical ancestor himself somewhere despite his powerlessness, Regina might have been able to see this baby as a chance to make it up to 'Daddy'. Any similarities would bring memories of love and a desire to make up for the one bad memory where she killed him to enact the curse. But Cora and Zelena brought Regina nothing but pain. This baby can't bring anything else to her. Again, to another family, sure, but not Regina.
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The Wiz of Oz
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby The Wiz of Oz » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:40 pm

Regina did know who Henry's birth mother is with the extension to his grandparents. Season 3 SAVE HENRY flashback but she forced herself to forget.
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby Her Mayorness » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:33 pm

Regina was forced into undoing her illegal adoption of Henry when she had to stop Pan's curse in 3A. Just because Henry remember's Regina raising him when he got his memories back doesn't she's his primary caregiver anymore. Besides, why should Henry go back to living with Regina when Henry literally had to beg to get let back into Regina's house after Robin went back to his wife? Henry's role in their relationship isn't the child, he's there to keep Regina happy and make sure she doesn't do anything evil. What child should have to spend all their free time combing through a book to find clues to rewrite history to make their mother a "hero"?

JMO, Emma is the more fit mother because her primary concern when it comes to Henry is making sure Henry is happy. When Henry was with Emma in New York, and had no memories of Storybrooke, he was happy and had lots of friends. Even after Emma came out of the ice cave Elsa created, Emma made sure to see how Henry was doing. Regina wouldn't even take calls from the Charmings to see how Henry was doing after Robin, and sent a bird to say she didn't want to see Henry. If something had happened to Henry and wasn't told during the time she wasn't taking their calls, she would blame them for her not knowing instead of accepting responsibility for not taking their calls.

So why do the Charming's need to "give him back full time" when Henry's better off in their care?


Aw seriously. I've never seen such a huge spin on things ever. :lol:

Henry did not spend any time with his mother to keep her from being evil.
Yes, she refused to see anyone because she was grieving. It's quite a natural process and it didn't last long. As for Henry begging... well he shouldn't have left his home in the first place.

The adoption was legal. I didn't see any kind of dark alley in which Regina took over Henry, handing the baby dealer a bag full of $$$ but a decent office with everything in it.

The Charmings need to give him back full time because Regina is his mother.
I doubt she would allow Henry to drive a car in the streets of Storybrooke, to put his life in danger (and the others' too) just to be likeable enough for him to accept her.

Oh and finally New York. Who knows how things would've been if Emma had kept Henry? Maybe not very happy given she was homeless and thief. The time Emma had with Henry in NY was all founded on Regina's gift to her so that life was far from real except that one year. But as I said, I doubt they would've had even a year of that sort of happiness if Emma had kept Henry in the first place.
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby aeverett » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:04 pm

Her Mayorness wrote:Henry did not spend any time with his mother to keep her from being evil.
Yes, she refused to see anyone because she was grieving. It's quite a natural process and it didn't last long. As for Henry begging... well he shouldn't have left his home in the first place.

The adoption was legal. I didn't see any kind of dark alley in which Regina took over Henry, handing the baby dealer a bag full of $$$ but a decent office with everything in it.

The Charmings need to give him back full time because Regina is his mother.
I doubt she would allow Henry to drive a car in the streets of Storybrooke, to put his life in danger (and the others' too) just to be likeable enough for him to accept her.

Firstly, I think Regina's willingness to put Henry at arms length while grieving was a sign that she is fit. A grieving Regina is a dangerous Regina and what's more, she's self aware enough to know that. Sending Henry to the Charmings was a good call. Not even speaking on the phone might have been a bit much, but with Regina's dark magic, perhaps not. She evaluated her risk to Henry and deemed the separation necessary. That says responsible parent to me. Emma and the Charmings accepted this. In this one instance, everyone did right by Henry. Henry is just too young to see it.

Secondly, the producers have said that Henry's adoption was legal. What they showed in 'Save Henry' was a bit unrealistic, but regardless, it happened and was legit.

As for the Charmings giving Henry back full time, I think what is more important is their public acknowledgement that Regina, and only Regina, is Henry's mother. Henry loves Emma. He loves his grandparents. Keeping him from them would make him unhappy. It's part of why Regina let him go live with Charming in 'We Are Both', but staying with the Charmings should be a situation where Regina is boss. Decisions about Henry should be unilaterally hers unless she deems it otherwise. A child needs a clear hierarchy in their life. Too many equals gives Henry options in who to obey and who to blow off. Right now it's just an issue of whether or not Henry can have french fries for breakfast, but in time it could be more serious. That boy needs boundaries. He gets into too many dangerous situations already.
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby RebeccaMatthews » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:21 pm

Her Mayorness wrote:The adoption was legal. I didn't see any kind of dark alley in which Regina took over Henry, handing the baby dealer a bag full of $$$ but a decent office with everything in it.


Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but after Regina put in her application to adopt, she went to Rumple to complain it was taking too long and wanted him to do something about it.

And you want me to believe that there wasn't a line of per-existing families and individuals that have gone through the proper screening and were waiting to be matched and adopt a healthy white newborn male?

No home studies were done, and with the exception of like 4 people, no one could enter or leave Storybrooke in season 1/2.

She lied on her application to adopt as she wasn't a legal US citizen and is a war criminal, and would have failed her criminal history background check because of her crimes in the Enchanted Forest.

Additionally, why did Regina have to go outside of Storybrooke to adopt a child? Why not manipulate the curse and give herself a child? Why did Regina have to steal, er, adopt one from our world to raise in a cursed town?

Just because Eddy and Adamn say the adoption was legal, doesn't mean it was.

And not only had she lied to obtain Henry, all the abuse she put him through raising him in a cursed town, and being the reason he technically died is reason enough for Emma to keep Henry away from her. As the sheriff, Emma had every right to remove Henry from Regina's custody, especially once the curse broke, and place him where he would be kept safe.

Yes, she refused to see anyone because she was grieving. It's quite a natural process and it didn't last long.


She didn't even take any phone calls from Henry. Even if it didn't last long, she still should've taken a call from Henry.

As for Henry begging... well he shouldn't have left his home in the first place.


Firstly, he was staying with his bio family since he and Emma returned to Storybrooke. He never went to live with Regina since returning to Storyrbooke, unless I've missed something.

And secondly, Regina isn't his legal guardian any more. Not since her illegal adoption was undone in 3A when she had to stop Pan's curse from enslaving them all again. And Pan cursing Storybrooke wouldn't have happened if Regina was willing to listen to Henry's other family members rather than being blinded by Henry wanting to spend time with her.

Henry did not spend any time with his mother to keep her from being evil.


So in 4B, why is it the only time we see Henry and Regina spending time together is when Henry is looking though the book to find clues to find the author to force him to rewrite it so Regina isn't labelled the villain?

In season 1, Henry was willing to sacrifice himself to stop the Dark Curse because that's what a hero does, but in season 4, he thinks it's great an innocent woman is dying for Regina to be with Robin. The entire Regina/Henry relationship isn't healthy.

The time Emma had with Henry in NY was all founded on Regina's gift to her so that life was far from real except that one year. But as I said, I doubt they would've had even a year of that sort of happiness if Emma had kept Henry in the first place.


*face palm* Either Regina gave them good memories or she gave them bad memories. That, or left them to think they were crazy because only they knew Storybrooke was real. If Henry had been adopted by anyone other than Regina, Henry likely never would have gone looking for Emma.

Honestly, Regina lost any parental claim she had on Henry the moment she killed Henry by giving that apple turnover to Emma. Henry was never her priority, it was maintaining the curse in season 1, and then getting her happy ending after it broke. And legally, Emma had to remove Henry from her care because she was a danger to him.

Spoilers for season 5 under the hide
Spoiler:
You saw what happened in the season finale, so why is her first response Emma's the problem now and needs to be deal with instead of comforting her son?


We are obviously going to see Henry's adoption by Regina differently because you are a fan of her and I am not. Sometimes I feel like I am the only one at this particular site that isn't a fan of Regina or her relationship with Henry. Knowing that Lana is one of the reasons for Henry and Regina's relationship being the way it is, Outlaw Queen being a thing, and some of the changes to Regina makes it difficult to believe that this is what the writers intended to do with those characters. For a character that is said to be a hero, her actions tell a different story.
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby The Wiz of Oz » Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:09 pm

RebeccaMatthews wrote:
Additionally, why did Regina have to go outside of Storybrooke to adopt a child? Why not manipulate the curse and give herself a child? Why did Regina have to steal, er, adopt one from our world to raise in a cursed town?

.


She didnt steal anyone. Greg is the reason why Regina wanted to be a parent (Season 2 WELCOME TO STORYBROOKE) So it was impossible for her to manipulate the curse so she could have a child. :roll:

The adoption was legal. Magic made Regina a US Citizen. Magic has done a whole lot for people outside of Storybrooke including Emma, Henry, Robin, "Marian", and Roland. even creating legal papers.
And there have been a whole lot of fast track adoptions without home visits.
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby NinaMcKinley » Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:50 pm

RebeccaMatthews wrote:
And secondly, Regina isn't his legal guardian any more. Not since her illegal adoption was undone in 3A when she had to stop Pan's curse from enslaving them all again.


I usually don't reply to threads this old but since you brought it up twice I couldn't resist the urge. The memories Regina gave Emma and Henry were fake. Regina never changed the past, it's just an illusion and the scene they showed at the end about Emma not giving up Henry is just an altered memory. As Hook pointed out repeatedly - the life of Emma and Henry was built on false memories and Regina and Emma said so, too, when they talked right before Emma left; the past won't be real, only the future will be.
So, the adoption still happened and she is still Henry's adoptive mother to date. (and as someone who has adopted cousins, I can assure you that bending rules/making exceptions doesn't make the adoption illegal)

OnceUponAFan wrote:Who knows if that's even the direction the show will take, maybe they are planning a redemption ark for Zelena or something who knows. But I too wish that they can find a way to make this baby disappear.


While I do root for underdogs and am all about forgiveness, I certainly could care less about Zelena. If Robin and Regina are so insistent about keeping the baby, let them have it and then send Zelena off to nowhere, please. She's annoying. And to be honest, I have a hard time believing why Robin would want the baby so badly in the first place; feeling an obligation is one thing, wanting a baby you were manipulated into having because someone wanted to hurt the woman to love... well, that's a whole other thing and I'd have liked to have some resentment on his part. Or at least more conflict between obligation and not really wanting the child. But as long as they get rid of Zelena for good then I can live with that.
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:12 pm

OnceUponAFan wrote:I love the Regina centric episodes. But one scene I don't really understand. Snow and charming help Mal find Lily and when they do and she's a dragon why the hell does snow run up to her? Serves her right for getting hit. What was she hoping to do by standing in front of a dragon?

She was only trying to save Mal from getting hurt. There's nothing that serves her right for god sake.
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:13 pm

OnceUponAFan wrote:I just don't understand what she was even planning on doing. At first I thought she was running to stand in front of Mal to somehow protect her but then she doesn't even do that. It's just a tad confusing what was going through her head.

She did so do it. It just didn't go at all the way she planned.
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Re: [4x20] Mother Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:19 pm

aeverett wrote:
Her Mayorness wrote:Oh Aeverett - I think you misunderstood what I wanted to say. The "she has a child" part referred to "No, I already have a child, Henry". What I meant was the cool way in which she dismissed the fact she was infertile but everything is all right because she has her son.


Otherwise, I loathe the baby plot and hopefully they find the way to fix it.

No, I wasn't referencing your post. I too love the acknowledgement of Henry as hr child. Now if only the Charmings would remember this and give him back full time. I loved the background stuff with Cora as well.

What I didn't like was the baby plot and Emma claiming that her parents were justified in ruining an innocent baby's life just to ensure she turned out good the way she did when she healed Snow. Healing her was right and giving her another chance would have been consistent, but she forgave. That should have been withheld until the Charmings earned their forgiveness.

Technically it was really Isaac who ruined Lily's life from the start. Only he set up and acted through someone else. You know that. And anyway, now that that brainless oaf is returning on seaso 6, I hope Emma realizes that Isaac was the real cause and culprit and apologize again to her mother for hurting and accusing the wrong person. Same to Lily, cause she has been after the wrong person too.

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