[6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

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The Wiz of Oz
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[6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby The Wiz of Oz » Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:19 am

What did you think of [6x10] Wish You Were Here?

Please use the hide tag if you discuss future episodes
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby facelesscreature » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:15 am

Wow! I loved this winter finale!

The alternate reality is basically a dream world similar to sleeping curses. It looks like Robin might be pulled out of this alternate reality and brought back to SB.

Gideon being the cloaked figure was a good twist. The Black Fairy seems to have taken him to another realm where he aged quicker? He also seems very powerful.

However, some things felt rushed.
Robin Hood showing up out of nowhere felt rushed. Maybe Rumple had something to do with it?

Ownership of the genie lamp is confusing. In OUATIW, only one person can use a genie until they have made their wishes. It seems in SB, anyone who controls the lamp gets the wishes. This could have been explained better.

Overall, I liked the episode. Can't March get here any faster?!
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby Tachs » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:29 am

I liked this episode. I couldn't help but feel like Henry knows something, since he's the author again. I know he doesn't realize he writes things until the next day, but I just feel like he knows something.

Also every time they showed Aladdin it looked like he was high for some reason. lol. Also in the wish world, how is Granny still alive? I bet it's because shes a werewolf...but still..idk it was just odd. Another thing with the wish world, why does Baelfire still have to be dead? I mean he could have been alive and it wouldn't really have mattered much.

The scene at Granny's where Hook and David are yelling at each other felt completely forced, even Hooks face looked like ehh...why are we yelling at each other..? What is it with David saying to meet somewhere in an hour? I feel like he always says meet here in an hour. It just interesting that they choose the same line with the same character.

The symbolism between the wish world and what happened before the dark curse was cast, is just epic. Henry throwing the sword at Regina, just as David did, and Regina poofed away, this time Emma stopped it.

Where did Rumple get the Bean? Speaking of beans what happened to Anton?

I had originally thought the Black Fairy took Belle's son, disguised as the Blue Fairy. But I guess the Black Fairy and the Blue Fairy fought, and the Black Fairy took him.

I am wondering though what will ultimately be the consequence from David's wish?

Evil Queen is now a snake, just like David called her. Maybe that's what she deserves?
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby facelesscreature » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:17 am

I guess the creators couldn't get the actor who played Baelfire back, so they just explained his death away. Another way to explain it would be to say that Emma is destined to be with Hook. Like it or not, Baelfire is destined to die whether Emma is the Savior or not.

I think Rumple got the magic bean from Hook in the wish world. Originally, he tried getting it by cutting off Hook's hand.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby jujubee » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:15 am

Mostly this episode made me interested in seeing what happens next. I always liked how in Season 2 we got to see two parallel storylines - one in Storybrooke and one in the Enchanted Forest (this time in the Wish World), so I'm really looking forward to that. Also interested in the return of Robin Hood and Emma and Regina working together. And especially David, Killian, and Henry having to work together. I really like their interactions, plus I'd love to see the men of OUAT get to step up; they too often get sidelined. I'm really hoping we get to see more of that.

Gideon as the cloaked figure isn't who I thought it'd be but I'm also not surprised; I never trusted him since the moment he showed up.

HOWEVER -

Usually when it comes to convoluted past timelines and magic "rules", I just roll with it. I've sorta given up trying to make sense of some of that. But this once bugged me:

Why was Rumple still trying to cast the Dark Curse?

I mean, there's no point, right? Especially since he had a bean. I guess there are ways around it. Maybe Rumple doesn't know Baelfire returned to EF and for some reason the curse is the only way to get to LWM? Though that seems unlikely. Or maybe Bae died because Snowing sent him on a mission or something and Rumple wants revenge? I don't know. But as it stands, it makes no sense. I hope it's explained.

I also agree about the wacky genie lamp rules. Another thing that needs to be explained. (Though that bothered me less.)

Despite that, I did enjoy the episode and I still love this show. March is way too long to wait!
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby The Wiz of Oz » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:38 pm

where to start with this episode...
I hated Emma in the fake Enchanted Forest.. She was a complete wimp.. I'm glad she snapped out of it.
I'm glad that SwanFire had a life in The fake Enchanted Forest.
I have a few ideas on how could have Neal returned to the fake Enchanted Forest. Since Regina and Emma are kinda stuck there I hope for explanation but will be ok if we dont get one. After all it's a fake reality.
Seeing Henry as a knight was nice. I also really like seeing an older and wiser Snowing.
Rumple was extra extra crazy in this reality and I liked it.
Regina doesnt know it yet, but her darkness has return by killing the fake Snowing.. And it wasnt such a good idea to free fake Rumple... not one of Regina's smart episode.. beside using one of the EQ's wishes...
Speaking of wishes: i thought it was established in season 1 and in Wonderland that a genie only gets a new master once the old Master use up their wishes.. oh well i guess the creators went the movie route: Whoever has the lamp is the master...
Speaking of master: the EQ was trying to turn Aladdin into her new sex slave (poor Graham).
Man David should have just used the wish to break the sleeping curse with a twist. who cares about the price.Poor Snow going to be hurt when she hears what she missed.
I demand more Aladdin and Jasmine return in the 2nd half of the season with Jafar..
man I did not see The Black fairy raising her new grandson and the man is the one under hood?! wow. I demand more of the black fairy in the 2nd half!
Ok I was shocked to see Robin Hood at the end. even though i heard rumors he would show up somewhere in this episode.. my only problem with Robin Hood in this fake reality is he hasnt aged. he should look older and wiser like Snowing. But i a glad he's back... for a final good bye.
I'm slightly happy and upset with the new ABC president. She lied saying the show would return sooner (mad), but happy once the show returns NO BREAKS!
OVERALL:GREAT MIDSEASON FINALE
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:05 pm

facelesscreature wrote:Wow! I loved this winter finale!

The alternate reality is basically a dream world similar to sleeping curses. It looks like Robin might be pulled out of this alternate reality and brought back to SB.

It is not an Alternate Reality. The world that that Brainless oaf Isaac wrote is an alternate reality (even though it wasn't real). The place where Emma and Regina are now is a wish realm, and it is a real place created by genie wish. And that place is more like an alternate timeline not Alternate Reality.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Sat Dec 31, 2016 5:14 pm

facelesscreature wrote:I guess the creators couldn't get the actor who played Baelfire back, so they just explained his death away. Another way to explain it would be to say that Emma is destined to be with Hook. Like it or not, Baelfire is destined to die whether Emma is the Savior or not.

I think Rumple got the magic bean from Hook in the wish world. Originally, he tried getting it by cutting off Hook's hand.

Destined to be with Hook? Only in your words and wishful thinking. And since it was hinted that most likely Hook murdered David's father, you call that destiny? They along with some people like you have been saying the same thing that Regina and Robin were destined to be together. And now look what has already happened. Aside from other characters, stories and actions, they have been paralleling Emma ad Regina to lose their boyfriends, and since Regina lost her current man, logically it might happen the same way to Emma.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby facelesscreature » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:39 am

At the time, I never gave the wish world much thought. My definition of an alternate timeline would be what is currently happening in the show. Since, events from S4 and so on only work because of Emma and Hook's time travel adventure at the end of S3.
I would say the wish realm is an alternate reality because it was created by Emma and the EQ's perceptions of a world without a savior. Also, certain characters that should've aged haven't aged in this realm.

As for the destiny of certain characters, I don't recall saying who should be "destined" together. I just think the writers want Emma to be with Hook. So, obviously they made an excuse for Baelfire to be dead in the wish realm.

I mean, if the writers wanted to, they could use the genie lamp to solve every problem with a simple wish.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:20 am

facelesscreature wrote:As for the destiny of certain characters, I don't recall saying who should be "destined" together. I just think the writers want Emma to be with Hook. So, obviously they made an excuse for Baelfire to be dead in the wish realm.

I mean, if the writers wanted to, they could use the genie lamp to solve every problem with a simple wish.
And yet they just decided that wishes come at a price too. And there's no turning back from that either now.

Having Baelfire to be dead in the wish realm doesn't actually mean or relate to what you think you know.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby facelesscreature » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:37 am

This is true. I don't know what the writers are doing.
I can only speculate and interpret things based on what's established.

I'm probably wrong anyway.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby misy » Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:22 pm

This is how the wish realm was explained:

Adam Horowitz: Yes, it is a real place. When the Evil Queen made the wish that Emma's wish be realized, this realm was created and it now exists. If you go there, you can get hurt, you can die, anything can happen there. Now, what it's not: it's not time travel. It's not that we went back in time and said, "Oh what would happen if the Curse didn't get cast?" or any of that. This is how we've established the rules of wishes on Once Upon A Time, the case of when you make a wish there are unintended consequences. These were the twisted consequences of the Evil Queen asking to have Emma's wish realized, which is why there are things like, you know, Baelfire clearly died and he's her hero in an oil painting there, and clearly didn't go off to visit the Darlings and have that stuff happen. The history is slightly different. It's not a "Back to the Future, you went back and changed one thing in the past [situation]", this was a wish that conjured up a realm to teach Emma a lesson which is due, and the lesson was "Don't wish to undo all the things that made you who you are." And I think by the end of the episode, you saw Emma realize that she liked who she was, and that she wouldn't want to change that.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby jujubee » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:37 pm

As much as I hate reading writer/creator "explanations" - I prefer to only go with what the show is actually telling me - at least this one is pretty much in line with what I thought of the Wish Realm.

NickyHelp wrote: And since it was hinted that most likely Hook murdered David's father, you call that destiny?


When was this? And I'm seriously asking; I very well could have missed it. It makes sense, but so do Regina, Rumple, or even King George.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:08 pm

jujubee wrote:As much as I hate reading writer/creator "explanations" - I prefer to only go with what the show is actually telling me - at least this one is pretty much in line with what I thought of the Wish Realm.

NickyHelp wrote: And since it was hinted that most likely Hook murdered David's father, you call that destiny?


When was this? And I'm seriously asking; I very well could have missed it. It makes sense, but so do Regina, Rumple, or even King George.
It was hinted in interviews by Josh. He and Colin teased that while they would show a friendship, Josh hinted that something will affect their friendship. It sounded related to the murder or David's father Robert. And also, even though we will see in ep 12 the story of his father, it was somehow spoiled that we will see the mystery about what happened to David’s father will be solved and see Charming find out who the killer is (even though we might see who it is first at the end of ep 12) by around Easter time.

https://www.facebook.com/tvline/videos/ ... ?ref=notif¬if_t=live_video¬if_id=1482177566912270
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby jujubee » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:05 am

Thanks. I rarely watch/read interviews about upcoming episodes. (hate spoilers.)
Still, it could be a red herring. Wouldn't be the first time, especially if it's that vague a hint. I'm not entirely convinced.
Also, I'd hate for it to be Hook; it seems so OBVIOUS. (And therefore boring.) Now that Charming and Hook are becoming friends, Of Course it turns out Hook murdered his father.
Ugh. It'd just such an unoriginal way to go. (Actually Regina or Rumple would also be expected and boring. I hate those options too.)
Personally, I hope it was King George for some heretofore unknown nefarious reason. Or better yet, something surprising like Robin accidentally killing him in his darker thieving days. He felt guilty so left the coin behind. SOMETHING twisty.
Probably it will be straightforward and therefore disappointing.
Ah,well. I'll still hope.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:15 pm

jujubee wrote:Thanks. I rarely watch/read interviews about upcoming episodes. (hate spoilers.)
Still, it could be a red herring. Wouldn't be the first time, especially if it's that vague a hint. I'm not entirely convinced.
Also, I'd hate for it to be Hook; it seems so OBVIOUS. (And therefore boring.) Now that Charming and Hook are becoming friends, Of Course it turns out Hook murdered his father.
Ugh. It'd just such an unoriginal way to go. (Actually Regina or Rumple would also be expected and boring. I hate those options too.)
Personally, I hope it was King George for some heretofore unknown nefarious reason. Or better yet, something surprising like Robin accidentally killing him in his darker thieving days. He felt guilty so left the coin behind. SOMETHING twisty.
Probably it will be straightforward and therefore disappointing.
Ah,well. I'll still hope.
No way Robin would be the murderor of Robert. He would be a child back then. He and Charming are about the same age when they were adults.


Also it seem to obvious for King George to be the murderor, cause we already seen how capable he is in doing a thing like that and that he is most likely the first person Charming would go to to demand the truth before he would find out who the real culprit. He might look like the type like Rumple and Regina, but then David would find it was someone he would never have suspected. Just like how we Violet meant saying those things to Henry which broke his heart right before we find out what really happened. It was Emma who made her say those things to him just to get a tear from him to free Merlin by ripping her heart out. It was a deception and an unforgivable act. And even though they are together, Henry didn't show any forgiveness to his mother.


We seen plenty of those things in other tv shows and movies where we are thought to believe who is the villain or culprit (which seemd too obvious) at first before it goes down to someone else we would never suspected like:

General Martok was the changling instead of Gowron in Star Trek Deep Space Nine (before we meet the real Martok soon).

Bellweather being the culprit instead of Mayor Leodore Lionheart in Zootopia.

Peter Pettigrew being the real traitor and selling Harry's parents to Voldemort instead of Sirios Black.

Professor Quirrell being the real thief of the Sorceror's Stone instead of Snape.

Stinky Pete being the one who turned on the TV and not Jessie in Toy Story 2.

Voldemort (memory of a diary) being the culprit of the Chamber of Secrets from the beginning by framing and acting through others.


Regina and Rumple seem off the hook, because the queen gave David the coin and already hinted that Robert's death was no accident, and Rumple already gave him evidence that Robert didn't die drunk but was stabbed and murdered. Both gave them clues to what happened.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby jujubee » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:52 am

Didn’t get a chance to respond until now and it’s going to be LONG. I understand if no one reads this, as I’m probably the only one finding this interesting. (Also, this is probably not where this post belongs, but it's where it started so keeping it here.)

NickyHelp wrote:No way Robin would be the murderor of Robert. He would be a child back then. He and Charming are about the same age when they were adults.


Sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree. I don’t believe that David and Robin are the same age at all. The main problem is that David’s age relative to anyone else’s is unclear. He’s only ever seen as an adult and once people get into the range of their 30s or 40s (as most of the main cast presently is), they tend to look/act/seem similar so it’s hard to differentiate age. But more often than not, at least as far I’ve seen in the fandom, David’s age is equated to Snow’s. In fact, they are at times listed as exactly the same. In Neverland, Emma yells at Snow and David that “We’re the same age. We have equal amounts of wisdom.” While this doesn’t mean they are literally the same age, it can be argued that it means they are closer than not and that Snow and David are within a short range. For this argument let’s say it’s two years. When Regina marries Leopold, Snow seems to be approximately 11 while Regina seems at least 18. This gives us a 7 year difference between Snow and Regina and 5 between David and Regina according to this model. Shortly after- based on Regina’s looks and attitude, and her ability to even consider a new soulmate – Tinkerbell takes Regina to meet “the man with the lion tattoo”. Robin here is clearly an adult and I’d even say slightly older than Regina, closer to 20 than Regina’s 18. (Point being he’s at least the same age, if not older.) There now could be arguably a 9 year difference between Snow and Robin and a 7 year difference between David and Robin. Given that David is 6 when his father is killed, this could reasonably make Robin between 12-15. While that is young, it is still old enough to commit murder purposely or accidentally, especially if a weapon is involved. (This is also the age Baelfire was when he was to be sent to fight in the Ogre Wars). Nothing here is definite, but it could be.


But allow me to point out here I’m not really advocating the idea of Robin as the murderer. It would be an interesting twist, but I’m not pushing for it. This was more about trying to come up with any option, conceivable even if far-fetched, that didn’t point to one of the Core Three.

Regina is now excluded, however, because of her age and, more significantly, her development. No matter her age, she wouldn't have been the Evil Queen yet.


NickyHelp wrote:Also it seem to obvious for King George to be the murderor, cause we already seen how capable he is in doing a thing like that and that he is most likely the first person Charming would go to to demand the truth before he would find out who the real culprit. He might look like the type like Rumple and Regina, but then David would find it was someone he would never have suspected. Just like how we Violet meant saying those things to Henry which broke his heart right before we find out what really happened. It was Emma who made her say those things to him just to get a tear from him to free Merlin by ripping her heart out. It was a deception and an unforgivable act. And even though they are together, Henry didn't show any forgiveness to his mother.


I’ll concede that King George is also obvious to some extent. Therein lies the problem. Making who killed Robert a mystery is limited by the show’s paradigm. Based on that and what we presently know, there are really only three reasonable choices – King George, Hook, or Rumple. Consistent characterization and, more importantly, age excludes a large part of the cast. King George may be a pompous jerk who screwed with much of David’s early life, but his motive here is less than clear. (Perhaps he had Robert killed out of anger that he sold James, whom King George loves? – a bit of a stretch). However, the fact that he hasn’t been seen since S2 makes him a little less obvious of a choice. Plus, his involvement could play into David’s worry he’s becoming like James.

Going too far into "someone he never would have suspected" could be brilliant, but it could also easily stretch believabilty or plot and fall outside the season's themes. When Emma took Violet's heart to get Henry's tear she was the Dark One, so it was believable, the "reason" made sense, and it fit thematically. The twist there was that Violet's heart was taken at all. Here, the crime is known. It's the who, how and why that aren't. The field is pretty limited unless we start including characters like Moe, the Black Fairy and Granny. Any of those are "possible" but don't fit well thematically without a whole lot of effort and explanation.(Doesn't mean the writers won't do it.) If they decide to go in a truly unexpected direction, they'd better be sure to make it work and not feel contrived, which is what I fear would happen if they go too far off field. Although, as I initially said, I hope they do go in an unexpected direction and somehow make it work.

NickyHelp wrote:We seen plenty of those things in other tv shows and movies where we are thought to believe who is the villain or culprit (which seemd too obvious) at first before it goes down to someone else we would never suspected like:

General Martok was the changling instead of Gowron in Star Trek Deep Space Nine (before we meet the real Martok soon).

Bellweather being the culprit instead of Mayor Leodore Lionheart in Zootopia.

Peter Pettigrew being the real traitor and selling Harry's parents to Voldemort instead of Sirios Black.

Professor Quirrell being the real thief of the Sorceror's Stone instead of Snape.

Stinky Pete being the one who turned on the TV and not Jessie in Toy Story 2.

Voldemort (memory of a diary) being the culprit of the Chamber of Secrets from the beginning by framing and acting through others.


Misdirection is a good way to go, and hopefully this will be part of it, but we’re still essentially stuck to the Core Three unless some outside, unlikely entity (like the Black Fairy) is connected behind the scenes. In such a case it truly could be anyone, but not really. (The Fairy made me do it!) That’s a possibility, though I’m not sure what to think of it. At any rate, there should be some unexpectedness but reasonable believability with the “how” and “why” as well. It's a tricky balancing act.

It could also be someone like Cora as she would do such a thing, but making it a person dead/not on the show wouldn't serve a whole lot of purpose. (Doesn't mean they wouldn't do it)

NickyHelp wrote:Regina and Rumple seem off the hook, because the queen gave David the coin and already hinted that Robert's death was no accident, and Rumple already gave him evidence that Robert didn't die drunk but was stabbed and murdered. Both gave them clues to what happened.


I don’t think these facts preclude Rumple. Regina is still out not because she told David (that would fit thematically) but because she wasn't yet the EQ.

Rumple:
1) He can see the future, but unclearly
2) He plays a deep game
3)He’s a master manipulator using truth and lies and can hide behind others.
The last one is clearly shown in S4 with how he uses Hook.
A) In giving Hook back his hand, Rumple uses truth – “This belonged to who you were, a ruthless pirate”, lie/possible truth – “it’s cursed to make you that man again” and afterwards another lie/possible truth – “it wasn’t cursed; you were just acting your true self.” Rumple is so good at lying that one statement is true and one isn’t and it’s hard to be certain which is which. (He also manipulated Emma effectively to “win” the sheriff election in S1.)
B) Rumple alters evidence to make it appear Hook trapped the Apprentice on his own. (In S3, Rumple also doctors evidence to make it look like Zelena killed herself.)
C) Rumple literally uses Hook as the means to trap the Fairies.
D) Rumple takes on Hook’s appearance to get the dagger from Belle.
In other words, Rumple may be the perpetrator but make it look/seem like someone else is responsible. So telling David about Robert’s murder doesn’t automatically exempt him from being involved.

As for the reason, follow the (limited) through line:

Robert’s farm in dire straits > King George adopts James in exchange for saving farm (Rumple involved) > Robert dies, farm in worse straits > Regina cuts off trade to King George, bankrupting him (Rumple Involved) > James dies > King George “adopts” David, David engaged to Abigail (Rumple Involved) > Snow and David meet, fall in love > King George threatens Snow, Snow lies to David > Snow takes forgetting potion in exchange for a hair (Rumple Involved) > David gets information about Snow in exchange for cloak/hair (Rumple Involved) > Rumple makes TL potion > David puts the TLP into Malificent in exchange for magic ring to find Snow (Rumple Involved) > Regina casts the Dark Curse (Rumple involved) > Emma retrieves the TLP (Rumple involved) > Emma breaks the curse (Rumple involved – tangentially) > Rumple uses TLP to bring magic to Storybrooke > Rumple leaves SB, Finds Baelfire
All the Snowing bits can in a sense be attributed to Rumple, since without his involvement they likely would never have met. So the gap in the line is at Robert’s death. Had he lived and turned himself around, the deal for David’s “adoption” may never have been made. His death is a component to Rumple’s contingency plans.

The writers also have a tendency to: Something Evil Happened in the Past = Rumple Involvement.
He is, after all, Rumplestiltskin, The Dark One, The Beast, The Crocodile, and even the (Evil) Fairy Godmother.

Hook remains the most likely option:
I still feel he is the most obvious choice, at least on the surface. This is admittedly in part because as soon as it was revealed that Robert was killed, my initial thought was “Hook did it”. This is because of their growing friendship and the show’s penchant for throwing a wrench in the works a la Zelena’s pregnancy just when it seemed Regina and Robin could reunite. It follows through with EQ2.0’s attempts to rip apart the Good Guys from within with Very Bad Secrets. And with Hook dating Emma, David’s initial distrust of him followed by his reluctant and wary growing trust, the breaking of all that just “fits”. David and Hook have been shown as much closer and dependent on each other in the most recent episodes, which again ramps up the possibility of something going wrong. The big problem here is that if Hook is indeed the murderer, how could David possibly get past it? Like with Regina, I’m not sure this is something David could ever overcome. Everything depends on the “how” and “why”.

The reason:
Hook didn't really need a reason to kill someone back then. "I didn't like the way he looked" would suffice. He would remember him, though not necessarily known who he was in relation to David. The other option is that Hook was an assassin for hire, as he’s done that before.

But in the end I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s something entirely different involving a tangentially connected character making all this reasoning for naught. It was kind of fun anyway.
Last edited by jujubee on Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:02 pm

Sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree. I don’t believe that David and Robin are the same age at all.
I never said they were exactly the same age. I was saying they are about the same age. It's different.

NickyHelp wrote:Also it seem to obvious for King George to be the murderor, cause we already seen how capable he is in doing a thing like that and that he is most likely the first person Charming would go to to demand the truth before he would find out who the real culprit. He might look like the type like Rumple and Regina, but then David would find it was someone he would never have suspected. Just like how we Violet meant saying those things to Henry which broke his heart right before we find out what really happened. It was Emma who made her say those things to him just to get a tear from him to free Merlin by ripping her heart out. It was a deception and an unforgivable act. And even though they are together, Henry didn't show any forgiveness to his mother.


(The Fairy made me do it!) That’s a possibility, though I’m not sure what to think of it.
If it were the Black Fairy, Hook would have remembered her when they revealed her want in s3A. So that would not make sense.

It could also be someone like Cora as she would do such a thing, but making it a person dead/not on the show wouldn't serve a whole lot of purpose. (Doesn't mean they wouldn't do it)
Illogical. Cora has been too busy trying to make plans for her daughter and to take over Snow's castle. And she did not seem to have time to destroy villages and murder people yet.

Rumple:
1) He can see the future, but unclearly
2) He plays a deep game
3)He’s a master manipulator using truth and lies and can hide behind others.
The last one is clearly shown in S4 with how he uses Hook.
A) In giving Hook back his hand, Rumple uses truth – “This belonged to who you were, a ruthless pirate”, lie/possible truth – “it’s cursed to make you that man again” and afterwards another lie/possible truth – “it wasn’t cursed; you were just acting your true self.” Rumple is so good at lying that one statement is true and one isn’t and it’s hard to be certain which is which. (He also manipulated Emma effectively to “win” the sheriff election in S1.)
B) Rumple alters evidence to make it appear Hook trapped the Apprentice on his own. (In S3, Rumple also doctors evidence to make it look like Zelena killed herself.)
C) Rumple literally uses Hook as the means to trap the Fairies.
D) Rumple takes on Hook’s appearance to get the dagger from Belle.
In other words, Rumple may be the perpetrator but make it look/seem like someone else is responsible. So telling David about Robert’s murder doesn’t automatically exempt him from being involved.
And yet some artifacts don't always count that he was part of it. Remember, he collects alot.

As for the reason, follow the (limited) through line:

Robert’s farm in dire straits > King George adopts James in exchange for saving farm (Rumple involved) > Robert dies, farm in worse straits > Regina cuts off trade to King George, bankrupting him (Rumple Involved) > James dies > King George “adopts” David, David engaged to Abigail (Rumple Involved) > Snow and David meet, fall in love > King George threatens Snow, Snow lies to David > Snow takes forgetting potion in exchange for a hair (Rumple Involved) > David gets information about Snow in exchange for cloak/hair (Rumple Involved) > Rumple makes TL potion > David puts the TLP into Malificent in exchange for magic ring to find Snow (Rumple Involved) > Regina casts the Dark Curse (Rumple involved) > Emma retrieves the TLP (Rumple involved) > Emma breaks the curse (Rumple involved – tangentially) > Rumple uses TLP to bring magic to Storybrooke > Rumple leaves SB, Finds Baelfire
All the Snowing bits can in a sense be attributed to Rumple, since without his involvement they likely would never have met. So the gap in the line is at Robert’s death. Had he lived and turned himself around, the deal for David’s “adoption” may never have been made. His death is a component to Rumple’s contingency plans.

Yet he speculates on what he plans as seen in 3B finale saying: "That Speculation's part of my plans. But I haven't done it." Clearly this was not the only option on finding Bae just to get Snowing to meet and give birth to Emma.

The writers also have a tendency to: Something Evil Happened in the Past = Rumple Involvement.
He is, after all, Rumplestiltskin, The Dark One, The Beast, The Crocodile, and even the (Evil) Fairy Godmother.[/quote]Actually it is Evil Fairy Godfather. Since he is not a woman like fairy.

Hook remains the most likely option:
I still feel he is the most obvious choice, at least on the surface. This is admittedly in part because as soon as it was revealed that Robert was killed, my initial thought was “Hook did it”. This is because of their growing friendship and the show’s penchant for throwing a wrench in the works a la Zelena’s pregnancy just when it seemed Regina and Robin could reunite. It follows through with EQ2.0’s attempts to rip apart the Good Guys from within with Very Bad Secrets. The big problem here is that if Hook is indeed the murderer, how could David possibly get past it? Like with Regina, I’m not sure this is something David could ever overcome. Everything depends on the “how” and “why”.
Except for one thing, just because Regina earned forgiveness, does not mean others like Hook would. And already Rumple didn't earn any forgiveness from others. Emma didn't earn any forgiveness from Henry for what she did to him just by Ripping Violet's heart out to get a tear from him to free Merlin. It was an unforgivable crime. As Charming, he has been living a lie about his father for almost 60 years and has not learned the truth until now thanks to the Queen and Rumple.

The reason:
Hook didn't really need a reason to kill someone back then. "I didn't like the way he looked" would suffice. He would remember him, though not necessarily known who he was in relation to David. The other option is that Hook was an assassin for hire, as he’s done that before.
Actually there were many reasons he would kill people. He already said he killed a man just for drinking his cup. That was a cold blooded act. And so far whenever Robert appeared as a ghost to David, including what we saw in a recent sneak peek, Hook did not notice him before the spirit disappeared. And even if he didn't know if Robert was a father (if he encountered him), he wouldn't care back then.
jujubee
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby jujubee » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:34 am

NickyHelp wrote: I never said they were exactly the same age. I was saying they are about the same age. It's different.

The claim was that Robin was an impossibility because he would have been a child. I reasoned that that isn't necessarily the case.

If it were the Black Fairy, Hook would have remembered her when they revealed her want in s3A. So that would not make sense.


If I had said that the Black Fairy had been controlling Hook or that he was in any way involved/had knowledge of Robert's death, that would be a valid point. But what I did say was that it's most likely one of the Core Three unless someone else, for example the Black Fairy, was involved. In that case it could be anyone(including Moe, Granny, or anyone else alive at that time.), but not really (it was actually the Fairy). To clarify: The person under the Black Fairy's control was the weapon, but the Black Fairy was the wielder. That person may not even know they did it; memory curses and forgetting potions are all too common. The point was that this is simply one possible way for the killer to be someone other than the Core Three. The writing would dictate whether or not this is a good idea.

Illogical. Cora has been too busy trying to make plans for her daughter and to take over Snow's castle. And she did not seem to have time to destroy villages and murder people yet.


I'll concede "illogical", as that's been much of the point of my entire post. But only because Cora would appear to have had little motive and is no longer on the show. At the moment, no one outside the Core Three makes enough sense without further information. Hopefully this will change. However, Cora ripped out her own heart before Regina was even born, and long before David was. She ripped out Daniel's heart approximately 19 years later. In between those times she has filled an entire vault with hearts which is shown when Regina gives one to Frankenstein. Cora has clearly been doing Very Bad Things for a Very Long Time. She is cruelly single-minded and pragmatic. There is no reason that murder would be precluded from her repertoire if she thought it useful. But the main reason I mentioned her is because she's one of the few established characters not affected by the "age issue". The problem, as always, is that it's possible but not likely.

And yet some artifacts don't always count that he was part of it. Remember, he collects alot.


Agreed. But at no point in that text did I say that Rumple's owning of artifacts proved his involvement. But I will say that his owning of them does not exclude it, nor does his sharing of information.

Yet he speculates on what he plans as seen in 3B finale saying: "That Speculation's part of my plans. But I haven't done it." Clearly this was not the only option on finding Bae just to get Snowing to meet and give birth to Emma.


I can agree that he's probably got lots of ideas not limited to the TLP. Even so, that doesn't mean Rumple wouldn't "hedge his bets". Using his enigmatic Sight, he may have deemed Robert's death as necessary, even without knowing why. Each of his actions did lead to others that eventually became integral to the Dark Curse. This isn't about what he absolutely would have done, but what he believably could have. It's not about proving that Rumple is definitively involved with Robert's death, only that it's possible.

Actually it is Evil Fairy Godfather. Since he is not a woman like fairy.


Irrelevant. Also, I'm perfectly aware Rumple is a man.

Except for one thing, just because Regina earned forgiveness, does not mean others like Hook would. And already Rumple didn't earn any forgiveness from others. Emma didn't earn any forgiveness from Henry for what she did to him just by Ripping Violet's heart out to get a tear from him to free Merlin. It was an unforgivable crime. As Charming, he has been living a lie about his father for almost 60 years and has not learned the truth until now thanks to the Queen and Rumple.


Actually, I was arguing the same thing. Perhaps the confusion is the "Like with Regina", which was a mistake on my part I forgot to remove. However, it is followed with the very clear statement "I'm not sure this is something David could overcome." And that is the Question in reagrd to the rest of the season. If Hook is the murderer and David can't forgive him, from that point forward they could only have an acrimonious relationship at best. Of course, the writers could do that; they can do whatever they want. It's just that all the effort put into that relationship from S3 onward could be wasted, which they may not want to do. Which leads me to believe that if Hook is the murderer there is some mitigating factor, though what that could possibly be I cannot guess. This supposition is based upon the direction of the writing and themes of the entire series, the past few years in particular.

Actually there were many reasons he would kill people. He already said he killed a man just for drinking his cup. That was a cold blooded act. And so far whenever Robert appeared as a ghost to David, including what we saw in a recent sneak peek, Hook did not notice him before the spirit disappeared. And even if he didn't know if Robert was a father (if he encountered him), he wouldn't care back then.


This is a matter of semantics. For me, killing someone for "drinking the captain's wine" or "calling me one-handed Jones" are equivalent to "no reason". Point being, any reason would work. I also didn't say he would care if he knew Robert was a father; he wouldn't. Just that he would have remembered Robert's name because he remembered the names of the men referenced above. It's just a random point that could come into play if David says something to jog his memory or if Hook saw Robert's ghost (assuming Hook is responsible). Though it could be ia twist if Hook both recognized him and knew something, but wasn't the killer.

And just to be clear: I'm not arguing against Hook being the murderer because he wouldn't have done it. He ABSOLUTELY would have. He was a violent, ruthless man who did many horrible things in a fit of anger. The point is exactly that: for me, he's the "most likely" choice based on his past, the growing David/Hook relationship, the trajectory of the season, patterns of show's history, and, frankly, the previews. But it's these same reasons that also lead me to wonder if perhaps Hook isn't the killer and it's all a misdirection (why I've been trying to come up with other possibilities - not proofs but possibilities), or there's something unforeseen in the motive. The writers - sometimes - like to make things that seem obvious turn out to be completely wrong. Take Jekyll and Hyde from just this season. They turned the expected on its head. So, it could be something like that. But if it turns out Hook was the murderer simply because he's a villain, then that's how it is and hopefully something interesting and unexpected comes from that, perhaps in some other twist down the line.
NickyHelp
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Re: [6x10] Wish You Were Here Discussion

Postby NickyHelp » Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:27 pm

The claim was that Robin was an impossibility because he would have been a child. I reasoned that that isn't necessarily the case.
But you wern't really clear to me. Sorry to say.

Agreed. But at no point in that text did I say that Rumple's owning of artifacts proved his involvement.
Not everyy object means he had any involvements. The Black Candle he got did not count for his involvement to anything. Nor the magic lamps.

Irrelevant. Also, I'm perfectly aware Rumple is a man.
It is not irrelevant, the the truth and fact. Cinderella already addressed him as fairygodfather. So the fact is it is connected.

This is a matter of semantics. For me, killing someone for "drinking the captain's wine" or "calling me one-handed Jones" are equivalent to "no reason".
This why when I said there are many reasons he would kill people is that they are his own reasons. Even when they were for no reason at all.

Point being, any reason would work. I also didn't say he would care if he knew Robert was a father; he wouldn't. Just that he would have remembered Robert's name because he remembered the names of the men referenced above. It's just a random point that could come into play if David says something to jog his memory or if Hook saw Robert's ghost (assuming Hook is responsible). Though it could be ia twist if Hook both recognized him and knew something, but wasn't the killer.
Well from the promo, he looked guilty when Charming posed the dagger at his throat looking furious and devastated.

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