[3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Once Upon a Time spoilers for season 3.
ihr
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby ihr » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:04 pm

aeverett wrote:
mysticalflute wrote:Snow killed Cora in pure self-defense and should not have to apologize for it. Period.

If she DOES have to apologize for it, Regina needs to apologize for:
-Killing Leopold
-Sending Snow on the run to be hunted
-Ruining Snow's chance at motherhood
-Ruining Emma's life
-Abusing Henry
-Ruining the lives of the ENTIRE TOWN OF STORYBROOKE
-Locking Belle up

Firstly, Leopold deserved his death. He married a young girl he knew he didn't love and didn't love him, then locked her up in his castle when he even suspected she might try to leave him. Regina was well within her rights to gain her freedom by any means necessary, even murder. Snow needs to get over the idea that her father's death was all about her.

Also, Regina didn't ruin Emma's life. OUR WORLD DID. Snow and Charming chose to send Emma to our world before the curse. Once she was in our world, Regina couldn't harm her, so all the terrible stuff that happened to her here was NOT Regina's fault. Our foster care system is to blame for ruining Emma's life.

Her Mayorness wrote:Regina did not, but acknowledged Cora killed Eva and that is one step closer to her apology to Snow. I want to hear that apology.

As for Regina apologizing to Henry, well she did apologize on the stairs in 2x2 as far as I remember and she did apologize to him for everything at least two more times. BUT apologizing for being ABUSIVE? WTH.. that's plain ridiculous and unfounded.
Before anyone starts throwing arguments in favor of abusive, answer one question - what if she had told him yes honey I am the evil queen and I cursed them, you are right. What then?

Cora killed Eva. Regina had no part in that. That was all Cora, so Regina has nothing to apologize for in regards to Eva's death. Johanna's yes, as she was helping Cora when Cora killed Johanna, but Eva was all on Cora.

As for Henry, those abuse allegations are totally unfounded. She made mistakes but none that rose to the level of abuse. She couldn't tell him the truth and have him grow up normal and healthy in our world. She was doing her best in a bad situation.

Regina has many thing to apologize for, but she isn't omnipotent or omniscient. She can't be held responsible for things she didn't know of or took no part in.


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Jennie
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby Jennie » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:00 pm

I don't see how anyone can say that Leopold deserved to be assassinated. We know that Regina didn't want to marry him, but we have never seen where he knew that. He was up front with her about what he wanted, a mother for his daughter because his wife was dead. For many women, being married to a kind king and being a mother to his daughter might seem like a good life.

I admit it's been awhile since I've watched those season 1 episdoes, but I don't recall Regina ever acting like she didn't want to marry him except with Snow and Cora. Yes, he invaded her privacy, but that just shows that he was human. For all we know, Regina could have left it in the open for him to come across. Perhaps he read it in an atempt to understand her better. It doesn't make it right, but it would be coming from a good place, rather than a place of evil. We know she used it in her assassination plans, so she might have been using it similarly all along. In the very least, she knew he was reading it.

Everything thus far we've seen of Leopold was that he was a good king, often away on business for his kingdom, but a kind and generous man. Regina felt trapped in the castle, but we don't have any evidence that there were different restrictions on her than there were on any previous queens or princesses. She was young and in a situation not of her own choosing.

Rumple and Regina both played a part in what happened to Emma in our world because they are the reason she was here. Rumple created the curse and Regina. Regina cast the curse and came to the castle to kill baby Emma. The only thing Snow and Charming are guilty of is saving their daughter and hopefully everyone else along with her. Remember, the plan was for Snow to go through the waredrobe before Emma was born, but Emma arrived too soon.

Just because Regina didn't know what would happen, doesn't mean her actions didn't have those consequences. I think the "abuse" people refer to with Henry is the gaslighting. Once he began asking questions, she became worried about everything falling apart. There was a bigger element of self-interest there rather than Henry's interest. But Henry has forgiven her, and she seems to have grown in her relationships over the past couple of seasons.

The truth is, Regina is definitely not blameless when it comes to what Emma went through, though Emma seems to have moved on, so I think we fans can as well. I know Regina will never regret her choices because without them she wouldn't have Henry. But I think she does regret hurting so many people, at least to a certain extent.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby Her Mayorness » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:30 pm

Oh NO, I never meant Regina should apologize for Eva's death. It's clear she was shocked Cora would do such a thing. As for Johanna's death, Regina has nothing to apologize for.
When Cora threw her off the clock tower, you could clearly see she was caught by surprise. Even if she was there, she obviously hadn't expected such course of events, as long as they handed them the dagger.

As for Leo, indeed, I can't quite agree he deserved to die. I also agree he read that journal to try and understand her better (the Queen is sad all the time) but still, it was invasion of her privacy. He never asked her if he could read it (of course), unlike Robin, who stole the letter from her but still waited for her permission. These two situations, for example, are completely different.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby aeverett » Mon Apr 21, 2014 4:09 am

Jennie wrote:I admit it's been awhile since I've watched those season 1 episdoes, but I don't recall Regina ever acting like she didn't want to marry him except with Snow and Cora. Yes, he invaded her privacy, but that just shows that he was human. For all we know, Regina could have left it in the open for him to come across. Perhaps he read it in an attempt to understand her better. It doesn't make it right, but it would be coming from a good place, rather than a place of evil. We know she used it in her assassination plans, so she might have been using it similarly all along. In the very least, she knew he was reading it.

Everything thus far we've seen of Leopold was that he was a good king, often away on business for his kingdom, but a kind and generous man. Regina felt trapped in the castle, but we don't have any evidence that there were different restrictions on her than there were on any previous queens or princesses. She was young and in a situation not of her own choosing.

Rumple and Regina both played a part in what happened to Emma in our world because they are the reason she was here. Rumple created the curse and Regina. Regina cast the curse and came to the castle to kill baby Emma. The only thing Snow and Charming are guilty of is saving their daughter and hopefully everyone else along with her. Remember, the plan was for Snow to go through the wardrobe before Emma was born, but Emma arrived too soon.


The diary thing is not Leopold's crime. You're right, he could have stumbled upon it innocently. Most likely Regina intentionally set it out for him to find. However, once he read it, he ordered Regina locked in her rooms. He literally restricted her freedom of movement when he knew she was unhappy as his queen. That is where Regina gained the right to leave by any means necessary. Whether or not other queens or princesses were subject to the same capture is irrelevant. Nobody has the right to hold another hostage. Perhaps that level of belief in human rights is beyond the Enchanted Forest, but human rights aren't contingent on culture. Otherwise honor killing would be hunky dory in parts of the world where it's custom. We don't let people in our world who have backwards views on human rights get away with that excuse and we fans shouldn't let Leopold get away with it. Whether or not it was customary to accept your fate, Regina had the basic right to leave if she so chose, even if that involved murdering her capture.

Leopold's goodness as a king is also irrelevant. Regina didn't owe the kingdom her continued imprisonment. She'd had a right to be free.

As for Emma's experiences in our world, those were the fault of people in our world. Yes, Regina cast the curse, but it was Snow and Charming who chose to send her away. They made that decision long before Regina attacked the castle after Emma was born. They had no way of knowing that Regina knew about Emma's destiny to break the curse and they didn't make the decision to send Emma through the wardrobe for the purpose of preventing Regina from skewering her. They did it to save themselves and all the people in the Enchanted Forest who would be cursed. Once she was in our magicless land, the foster care system screwed her up, not Regina.

Her Mayorness wrote:Oh NO, I never meant Regina should apologize for Eva's death. It's clear she was shocked Cora would do such a thing. As for Johanna's death, Regina has nothing to apologize for.
When Cora threw her off the clock tower, you could clearly see she was caught by surprise. Even if she was there, she obviously hadn't expected such course of events, as long as they handed them the dagger.

As for Leo, indeed, I can't quite agree he deserved to die. I also agree he read that journal to try and understand her better (the Queen is sad all the time) but still, it was invasion of her privacy. He never asked her if he could read it (of course), unlike Robin, who stole the letter from her but still waited for her permission. These two situations, for example, are completely different.


Regina was partially responsible for Johanna's death. Regina was helping Cora get the dagger. Yes Cora sent Johanna through the clock tower window without forewarning her daughter, but as she was Cora's accomplice in torturing Johanna in order to get Snow to give up the dagger, she was part and parcel of Johanna's murder. There's a legal term for it that escapes me atm, but the two actions were tied together, making Regina partially responsible for Johanna's death.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby Jennie » Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:09 pm

aeverett wrote: Most likely Regina intentionally set it out for him to find. However, once he read it, he ordered Regina locked in her rooms. He literally restricted her freedom of movement when he knew she was unhappy as his queen. That is where Regina gained the right to leave by any means necessary.


At this point, I'll admit I stopped reading because you admitted that Regina most likely intended for him to find her diary. Yes, he ordered her held in her rooms, but that was all part of her plan. She was manipulaing him. I don't think that gives her the right to leave by any means necessary. It would be like hiring someone to kidnap you, but once they do, you kill them to escape. She wanted him to read it and lock her up so that she would have a reason to kill him by manipulating the Genie to do it for her. I simply don't find that justifiable.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby aeverett » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:51 am

Jennie wrote:At this point, I'll admit I stopped reading because you admitted that Regina most likely intended for him to find her diary. Yes, he ordered her held in her rooms, but that was all part of her plan. She was manipulaing him. I don't think that gives her the right to leave by any means necessary. It would be like hiring someone to kidnap you, but once they do, you kill them to escape. She wanted him to read it and lock her up so that she would have a reason to kill him by manipulating the Genie to do it for her. I simply don't find that justifiable.

Regina predicted Leopold's response to her diary entry, but he still had no right to lock her up. If he were truly just he would have confronted her and let her make her own decision to leave or stay, but instead he abused his power as king to deny her the basic human right to leave. In your analogy there is collusion between kidnapper and kidnapped. The kidnapped is the one with the power, not their employee, the kidnapper. In Regina's situation, she set out her diary and Leopold responded by trying to deny her the basic right to come and go as she pleased. The moment he did that, she had the right to seek her freedom by any means necessary.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby ihr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:49 pm

Leopold was probably reading Regina's diary regulary. She knew how little respect he had for her privacy and for her, thast's why it was easy to put her thoughts about the man knowing he would read it. She knew that he was also very possessive of her. She wasn't a person to him, just a property. This was Leopold's reaction - "someone is trying to steal my stuff"

It boggles my mind how anyone can claim that Leopold did Regima some kind of a favore or that she should have been happy.
Their marriage was a farce, not a union between two equals who loved and respected each other. She was nothing but a prisoner, a glorified babysitter. She wasn't part of Leopold's family. He neglected her, treated her coldly and with casual emotional cruelty, always comparing her to his first wife, humiliating her in public. Denying her love, happiness and hope all the while knowing well that he can't provide her with it.
No one here on this forum would tolerate this kind of marrriage for a moment, what makes them think that some deserve such a cruel fate? whitewashing Leopold makes me sick.

Also, may I remind everyone here that Charming was ready to die rather than marry Abigail, and we were meant to root for him.
Why are Snow and David entitled to marry for love, but not Regina?

My only question is, why did she wait 10 years to kill him, I would have done it a lot sooner.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby Jennie » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:45 pm

Someone remind me: Did Regina send her mother through the looking glass before or after her marriage to Leopold?
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby misy » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:56 pm

^I'm pretty sure it was before.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby Jennie » Tue Apr 22, 2014 2:57 pm

aeverett wrote:In Regina's situation, she set out her diary and Leopold responded by trying to deny her the basic right to come and go as she pleased. The moment he did that, she had the right to seek her freedom by any means necessary.


You do realize that I'm not saying Regina should be locked away. What I'm saying it that that is what she wanted so that she would have a reason to manipulate the Genie into assassinating Leopold. In my example of the kidnapping senario, they do not have to be in collusion. If the kidnappee is manipulating the situation in order to have someone come to her rescue and murder the kidnapper, then my analogy stands, imo.

Was Leopold necessarily right for ordering her confined to her rooms? Maybe, maybe not. But that doesn't deserve death, especially given that we know Regina manipulated the situation to get the Genie to kill the King.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby Jennie » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:01 pm

misy wrote:^I'm pretty sure it was before.


Then that stregnthens my opinion that Regina continued with the marriage in a desire for power. If her mother was out of the picture before the wedding, then she didn't have to marry the King, she chose to.

She eventually went into the marriage willingly, unlike Charming who was still being forced to marry Abigail. If Charming had married Abigail and then didn't like how she treated him, and then did the whole manipulation scheme that Regina did in order to have Abigail killed, I think we would all agree that what he did was wrong.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby misy » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:09 pm

I have to agree with you on that, Jennie.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby ihr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:53 pm

Jennie wrote:
misy wrote:^I'm pretty sure it was before.


Then that stregnthens my opinion that Regina continued with the marriage in a desire for power. If her mother was out of the picture before the wedding, then she didn't have to marry the King, she chose to.

She eventually went into the marriage willingly, unlike Charming who was still being forced to marry Abigail. If Charming had married Abigail and then didn't like how she treated him, and then did the whole manipulation scheme that Regina did in order to have Abigail killed, I think we would all agree that what he did was wrong.


She was bound to Leopold by Cora's spell and at this point in her life, as we have seen in "The doctor", she had no desire for power. In fact Jeferson had to remind her that she was the Queen. People saying that she could have gotten away are projecting their 21st century view. Do you really think that Leopold would have let her get away?. He would have become a joke among his peers. Regina would been hunted down and killed like an animal. FTL is jsut like GOT in societal and cultural context ( Women are sold and treated like chattel).
As soon as Cora said "Yes", Regina was trapped. Marriage is a contract between families, and breaking it has far reaching consequences. ( see under: The Red Wedding).
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby Jennie » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:13 pm

We see nothing that makes us think that Leopold would have hunted her down for breaking the engagement. And as far as we know, the spell that her mother cast on her not being able to leave the castle would have been broken when she was sent to another realm. I thought that was the whole point in Regina sending her mother away...so that she could make her own decisions. Once they were married, she had made a commitment to him that she would be expected to hold, but engagements can be broken. We see that in historical dramas often...no 21st century ideals needed.

We see that King Leopold wants everyone in his kingdom to be happy. That was why he gave the Genie his freedom. I think we can easily forget about that scene when we try to demonize him in an attempt to justify Regina having him killed. It wasn't a case of her wanting her freedom, she wanted to be a real Queen and to make Snow suffer. I'd love to see Regina address Leopold's death at some point, but I'm not sure they will bring it up again.

I don't watch GOT, but I'd say that Leo is a far cry from Joffrey, yes?
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby ihr » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:14 pm

Jennie wrote:We see nothing that makes us think that Leopold would have hunted her down for breaking the engagement. And as far as we know, the spell that her mother cast on her not being able to leave the castle would have been broken when she was sent to another realm. I thought that was the whole point in Regina sending her mother away...so that she could make her own decisions. Once they were married, she had made a commitment to him that she would be expected to hold, but engagements can be broken. We see that in historical dramas often...no 21st century ideals needed.

We see that King Leopold wants everyone in his kingdom to be happy. That was why he gave the Genie his freedom. I think we can easily forget about that scene when we try to demonize him in an attempt to justify Regina having him killed. It wasn't a case of her wanting her freedom, she wanted to be a real Queen and to make Snow suffer. I'd love to see Regina address Leopold's death at some point, but I'm not sure they will bring it up again.

I don't watch GOT, but I'd say that Leo is a far cry from Joffrey, yes?


Leopold locked her up in her chambers like a prisoner because a man gave her a gift. What do you think he would have done if she actually been unfaithful to him? She wanted her freedom alright and take revenge on Snow. One doesn't contradict the other.

Leopold isn't Joffrey. Far from it. But the norms in both places are the same. Viewing women as a property, not as persons. He may have wanted the people in his kingdom to be happy, but that clearly didn't extend to his wife.
Like you, I would have loved the show to adress their marriage. The age gap, the power imbalance between them, her unhappiness, his lack of love and respect, the fact that she was the daughter of his once fiance. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I think we may have to agree to disagree on this issue.
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Re: [3x18] Bleeding Through Spoilers

Postby Jennie » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:58 am

ihr wrote:I think we may have to agree to disagree on this issue.


I think so :)
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